[Tantetsu Mitsu]

Fuinjutsu NAME: Fezā-kyū [Feather Weight] RANK: C CHAKRA USAGE: Medium CLASSIFICATION: Fuinjutsu REQUIREMENT: DESCRIPTION: The sister seal to Senkin [Great Weight] and like it the Fezā-kyū [Feather Weight] seal works by inscribing a small seal upon an object and applying their chakra to the object. Allowing the shinobi to partially seal the objects weight reducing the total weight of the object down to one fourth it's prior weight. This seal effects objects only, cannot be placed on individuals, and lasts for as long as the seal remains in contact with the object.

[Toff E]

Hi hi Keen!

So this one’s actually a little bit of a pickle design! Though I think the solution is simple.

In essence - Seals are not weightless. Due to the principle factors of fuinjutsu it was decided a long while ago that seals are not weightless (Im to blame for that ruling actually very sorry XD). Because of this, seals like this one would be incredibly finicky and hard to use in any degree at least in an efficient way. As sealing weight would only fractionalize the objects weight that’s sealed. So if you sealed 900 pounds off a 2 ton rock, your not really sealing a full 900 pounds, just a majority.

Where this becomes really tricky is that the rule above is meant to apply to all OBJECT sealing, so by trying to take something that is essentially a base principle of an objects physics… you mess with a lot without actually saying it. This rule applies universally however to anything that functionally seals (hence it being possible to have Oshii and Senkin as they are.

That’s not to say this is impossible, but I believe it will need the following changes:

Increase rank to C, minimum.

Quarter the possible weight reduction (will denote that 250 lb. at most from a jutsu thst can pre-emptively be placed on massive objects is still A LOT OF WEIGHT SUDDENLY MISSING), this is also to keep in mind that this is VERY close to the Weighted Rock Package and should be absolutely nowhere near it in terms of comparison.

Remove the one seal release. This may seem like the weirdest change, but in essence the thought that people may be using this to grab a Strength SA toss massive boulders, metal constructs, wooden creations (can you imagine someone throwing the wooden buddha with this, its a funny thought as its currently written and especially if you make a big brother version like Oshii) and then dropping it on someone. You can still do this in a plethora of ways without the one seal release, and given I did this with the weight seal. Making a seperate jutsu for turning the weight reduction on and off is also a possibility.

[Tantetsu Mitsu]

Toff E

All righty sat down and thought about your review and determined that the seal writeup was somewhat over complicating things. I adjusted the seal to where it can only quarter the weight of an object. I believe this is the safest way to keep this from being easily abuseable as is instead of having specific weights it can reduce which could in theory reduce an object to near weightlessnes it just adjusts the current weight by a fraction depending on said weight. This prevents it from ever competing with the Weightless rock package as it can never reduce an object to weightlessness and a quarter of a 100 ton rock still equals a shinobi not being able to hoist or throw that sucker. I also adjusted it to where the seal can't be released via a handseal and works by being in contact with the object, can't be used on individuals, and upped the rank to C-rank and the chakra cost to medium.

[Toff E]

Alrighty! Back we are, after a long conversation it was decided that this really can't work. For not just one, but two reasons both of which I struggled to iron out in seeing if there was a correction, but that doesn't not see to be the case here at all. One is an issue I brought up before which is the attempt to remove weight is an incredibly abstract. Fuinjutsu being an art mostly about addition rather then subtraction causes this to be put in an odd spot alone. We then come to the second issue that there really isn't a work around for, how much is too much weight reduction to an object before its too much. The answer is very little before it starts to infringe into territory of a good multitude of areas of jutsu least of which is hijutsu techniques. It makes the balancing point of this jutsu so heavily in need of being impractical and useless that its better not being worked.

For that I regretably will be stamping this with a denial. [1/2 Denied]

[Tantetsu Mitsu]

Understandable though I would argue about fuinjutsu only being about addition rather than subtraction. Given a core part of fuinjutsu is sealing something away into something else. Be in sealing objects into scrolls. Sealing away a persons movement. Sealing away memories. Ect. So I would on a fundamental level argue that subtraction is as essential a part of fuinjutsu as addition is. I argue this not to contest the denial, but as an essential part of fuinjutsu as I worry that this argument may come up again in regards to future techniques that subtract things. Given subtraction fuinjutsu have been approved in the past, and quite recently, I would like to see fair consistent rulings across the board as best as possible in regards to this topic.

If the issue is fuinjutsu that tampers with weight then perhaps prior weight fuinjutsu needs to be re-reviewed. That said I am open to working with staff on this jutsu and this issue if further details can be given. My intention is not to cause staff trouble, but to see if maybe an extra mind can lend some new views. The main idea for this jutsu in particular was to apply to weapons and armor for ease of transport though physical bulk would still be a limiting factor.

[cocoa]

Hi Keen, I'll try to provide some more detail here on my review.

1) While subtractive effects are theoretically part of fuuinjutsu abilities, items/properties sealed away by fuuinjutsu generally go "somewhere." When an item is sealed away into a scroll, you're taking the entire structure of the item and transferring it into the seal.

I want to think about this jutsu "mechanically." With Senkin [Great Weight], you are condensing chakra into a physical form and then sealing that chakra within the seal to apply additional weight to the object.

When you do the reverse for Fezā-kyū [Feather Weight], what are you actually doing? You can't produce chakra that has a negative weight (especially not without stepping on some clan toes), so you're not sealing anti-grav chakra into the seal to reduce the weight.

This means that, similar to sealing the object, you must be sealing something physical. What are you actually sealing from the item? In order to reduce its weight, you'd have to take out parts of its internal structure, which would ultimately structurally compromise items. If you seal the inside of a big rock to make it weigh less, you suddenly have a thinly layered brittle rock, right? If you seal the inside of a sword it may just bend and break.

2) Great Weight is already something we're on the fence about because of its proximity to Weighted Rock technique, so lightening of objects is something we really want to keep an eye on. The ability to make tons of things lighter and carry around extreme amounts of equipment is a concern for balance that we really, honestly don't want to have to monitor as an available option for every single player on site.

Part of the balance of scrolls allowing you to carry tons of additional equipment is the fact that you have to stop, unroll, and unseal the items in order to be able to use them, providing some visibility to opponents that you're about to produce additional equipment.

With this seal, you could theoretically carry around thousands of bombs on your person in a bag, completely unhindered, immediately accessible, and with no indication to your opponents that you're a walking bomb factory with no build investment aside from the exp expended on a jutsu.

3) When it comes to items similar to SA&W items, as this one is similar to Doton: Keijugan no Jutsu [Earth Release: Light-Weight Rock Technique], I like to ask "Would this jutsu existing make people look at the SA&W item and say 'why would I waste an SA&W slot on this when I could buy [x] instead?' Feather Weight, as written, can be applied to theoretically infinite objects vs. Light-Weight Rock only being applied to one, and while it lacks the ability to be applied to people, it also avoids the lowered damage debuff associated with it, and can be traded off for a lot more killing power as I described above. In many ways, this technique defuncts use-cases for Weighted Rock. If it does exist, it should be as a part of the Weighted Rock package.

---

So what can we do? For me this is a real "back to the drawing board" jutsu. You can already carry around a lot of equipment at once at the price of bulky scrolls when utilizing standard sealing techniques, so I'm not sure that this jutsu is wholly necessary to accomplish what you'd like to accomplish without breaking other balance factors of how bonus-equipment-carrying works.

If you'd still like something like this, my recommendation would be to change the mechanism by which it works.

For example, a Fuuton seal that when placed on an item releases Fuuton chakra for [x length of time] to help lift it up. Usecase like putting it on your armor right before you climb a mountain so help alleviate the weight, or somesuch.

 

[Tantetsu Mitsu]

1) We currently have multiple fuinjutsu that seal 'concepts'. How will this new ruling effect Jutsu that seal memories, chakra, the ability to speak, ect? In the case of the memory seal are you sealing away a part of their brain? Memories aren't physical. In the case of the speech seal are you sealing away their vocal chords? I think to a certain extent we have to accept that the Naruto world doesn't entirely follow physics especially with fuinjutsu and ninjutsu. Though to answer the theoretical 'how' on lightening an object you would be sealing away partial molecules reducing it's density.

2) In the case of a walking bag of bombs even if you aren't limited by the weight of an object you are still limited by it's bulk and storage. Items are weightless within scrolls so this doesn't matter as far as sealing scrolls. For a weight reducing seal however just because you can reduce the weight of something doesn't mean you can physically maneuver it's bulk without the proper techniques such as the weighted rock package. Sure you can lighten 100 great swords, but you can't see around the massive pile of them in your arms or have enough room on your person to carry them. Especially given the seal I'm proposing doesn't actually make them weightless like the weighted rock package can.

3) Personally given staff is completely redefining how Weighted Rock Works I find this to be a loaded question as we the players have no idea how the package will change or what it will be once it's re-work is done. However at it's base I don't really think a seal that can at best reduce a 100lb object to 25lbs is really in any way shape or form able to compete or even hold a candle to a package that per canon lets someone 1) become weightless, 2) fly, 3) completely negate weight or increase weight 100x, 4)control and maneuver objects regardless of bulk or weight, 5) compromise the weight and structures of objects on a molecular scale, and the list goes on and on. I think the idea of this seal infringing on the SA package or clan abilities like the Sourei is a bit like saying a common raiton tech is infringing on the Chidori.

Honestly I'm really less worried about the seal then I am about how this is going to effect fuinjutsu as a whole. Because if we're no longer allowing the sealing of non-physical objects that's going to negate a large aspect of an entire spec. I feel that the spec itself and what it should be able to do or not do should take priority over a technique package that at most 3 people on server will be able to use. I understand staffs hesitance and that this is a difficult matter to consider, but I do hope that my thoughts can help and be taken into consideration.

[cocoa]

1) I think saying memories aren't physical is a bit untrue - memories are patterns within the brain, and it is possible to block them, forget them, or lose them when experiencing particular damage to the brain. Sealing of memories is using chakra to block the pathways, you don't have to take the memory out and remove a portion of the brain because it is possible to inhibit the memory by simply sealing the pathway by which the memory is recognized, which is also why the memory erasing seal doesn't completely erase memories and they still exist/are possible to re-obtain/are experienced as dreams. The memory erasing seal acknowledges it is NOT possible to simply seal someone's memories in their entirety because of the complexity of the structure of a brain. A memory could Only be fully erased through a destruction of the mind - even the Yamanaka hijutsu cannot permanently erase a memory outside of completely destroying the brain.

Similar can be said for Silence - the silence isn't obtained by affecting the vocal cords, the seal is written on the head. It is implicitly using chakra to block the part of the mind responsible for speaking. Rather than taking the vocal cords out, it is acting as a "block" to the process of speaking. This isn't a jutsu at the moment, but you could also hypothetically have tags that seal sound waves as they're produced because they're a physical thing.

I am confused on the chakra comparison. Chakra is a spiritual energy but it is also semi-physical, not just conceptual, as indicated by my using it as an example of how the Great Weight technique works. Nothing I said contradicts the ability of someone to seal their chakra within a scroll or utilize chakra with fuuinjutsu. If you seal your own or someone else's chakra, you are sealing a physical object. If you prevent someone from using chakra, you are sealing something physical within their body.

The Naruto universe is obviously not always 100% logically consistent with IRL physics and I recognize this, but we still want to keep some consistency and functionality with the mechanics. However, I don't think this ruling will have the implications you believe on fuuinjutsu. None of the examples that you utilized are comparable to simply making the weight of an item disappear - I concur that you could theoretically seal away molecules of an item as an explanation, which is the explanation I did give in my original reply when I stated "In order to reduce its weight, you'd have to take out parts of its internal structure, which would ultimately structurally compromise items." My point there is that if you start pulling molecules out of an item, you're going to break it.

2) Before I get into rambling about the potential ways this can still be abused again, I want to ask here to try to better understand, what is your actual imagined use-case for this seal? Let's imagine that, theoretically speaking, this gets approved and you can now use it? What are you imagining putting it on?

3) I will say that "Staff" isn't currently as a project redefining how weighted rock works yet, the rewrite is a pet project by Yori as a site member and not in a Staff capacity, it has not yet been fully reviewed by staff. That said, the techniques as written And as proposed both come with a host of benefits and downsides, that include impacts to speed and dodgeability, strength of attack, and an ability to only apply to a single item at a time. Though the ability presented by Feather Weight is much weaker, it's also much "safer" in this regard. I will say that it's not just this jutsu alone for me, it's the ultimate fact is that with Great Weight and Feather Weight as a duo of available universal jutsu you can ramshackle together a pseudo weighted rock style that causes the SA&W item to lose its distinct "feel." We could go back and forth on how "inferior" something needs to be before it is distinguishable, but ultimately I don't want to leave you with a bad/weak jutsu that you are dissatisfied with at the end when I could just tell you I think that what this is accomplishing is too close to something that already exists, and that it would be better to explore other avenues. 

Ultimately I am always going to value site balance and general style mechanics over SA&W items because SA&W items are fun bonus mechanics that matter less to me than everything else, but their abilities are also limited for a reason. Potential exploitability is much easier to monitor on limited slots and becomes a lot more difficult to account for every angle when a more generalized ability is opened up for Everyone on site. This ruling and perspective shouldn't have any impact on how fuuinjutsu is currently written and judged, though I am afraid there may be some misunderstanding of the mechanisms by which fuuinjutsu usually work. Most fuuinjutsu seal some kind of physical object, physical process, or chakra process inside of them. I looked through the universal fuuinjutsu index a few times while writing this reply just to be 100% sure and could not find one which didn't meet this definition.

Which brings me back to the points I made in #1 and #3 - I think this jutsu could theoretically work by sealing away particles of the item on which the seal is placed, but I think that would compromise the structural integrity of the item, and I don't want to leave you with a jutsu that's going to break your stuff when we could discuss alternate methods to achieve what you want to do instead.

[Tantetsu Mitsu]

cocoa

Understandable. Please go ahead and remove this from notify as while the fuinjutsu is interesting I already have alternative ideas not involving fuinjutsu to accomplish what I personally was interested in. This was more just a pet project to make something cool for everyone. However, if it is stressing site and the rules it is not worth continuing with. (＾＾)ｂ

[cocoa]

Absolutely! Sorry for my long rambles on this and let me know if there is any way I can help with getting your other ideas off the ground!