Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion redux

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Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion reduxAug 6, 2022 15:07:21 GMT -5
Toff E
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For the record I left the discord for my own reasons, but Id be lying to say that the discord is not part of my stress. The environment is hostile in the oddest fashions at times, and just like always at others. This suggestion, despite being worded rather argumentatively I believe should simply read "We would like to anonymously send in collective feedback.

I can politely say what I am sure would not be taken as truthful in "this isn’t about any one person involved in any instance” but the fact that opinions can be formed among members leading them to guess at "who” may be referred to in any given post here shows that the discord, no pun intended, is wide spread enough that even uninvolved individuals have gotten ideas to what any comment could be pointing to.

Let us please not argue over who was at fault when the answer is "everyone” not "someone”.

- My last two cents on this matter.
last edit by Toff E on Aug 6, 2022 15:08:20 GMT -5
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Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion reduxAug 6, 2022 15:23:25 GMT -5
Mika
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I feel like there's a lot to address and it's not really my place to give commentary on a lot of it. Sharp, you're singling out Yamato--we'd been keeping names to ourselves and not pointing fingers, and while to you it seems "obvious" that we were all "talking about him", I just want to speak up and clarify right now that I, who is the only person I can speak for, absolutely was not. I have seen a great deal of issues from many members of "multiple status" alike. Newcomers, veterans, staff, non-staff. I've listened to the complains, struggles, and drama from just about every angle, which is why I don't like taking sides and recognize that there's rifts in our community that can't be mended if nobody talks about it and accountability isn't enforced.

It's complicated and a complex issue, which is why I think that we all, as a community, need to collectively work together to try to make this space better for everyone.

While I know there will always be issues around rulings, and appeals being rejected, denied, or whathaveyou--that's not really my focus in this situation. There isn't a perfect solution to everything. Not everyone will always be happy. Certainly. Not every idea fits with the environment of the site--that's also completely fair. But I also believe shifts and changes can happen that won't break the system. I've already seen some positive changes in my time here, and I'd love to see it continue to move in that direction. Vastly what I can tell, however, most of the issues that most of the people here are trying to voice, are around the atmosphere and environment that has been socially created. Attitudes and behavior, more than rules and regulations.

At the very least, those are my greatest concerns, and what I have struggled the most with, and what I see largely affecting other players, too. I've had a couple of conversations with individuals who didn't like certain rules, thought they were silly, not how they were familiar with, etc. But DMs and conversations about being attacked, ostracized, bullied, discriminated against, felt unsafe, stressed, had detrimental affects of their mental health, were targeted, etc?

Tenfold.

And I think that's a problem that, as I stand by, needs a solution.

I hold no hostility to anybody here, so this isn't me attacking or slighting against anybody. I just think that these issues are far further spread and deeper-seeded than you may have realized, which is why these conversations are so important. 
has written 123 posts
Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion reduxAug 6, 2022 15:29:00 GMT -5
Mint
Don't be afraid of death, be afraid of the unlived life.
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age 29 years old birthday 09/02 rank a big ninny occupation makeshift mod
Mika has made their point, and I stand with it. I was also not referring to him, Sharp. We have, so far, kept named out of it because that is the entire point of this feedback I also purposefully changed the wording on some of the quotes to paraphrase in order to not have that member or staff feel signaled out.

I appreciate everyone who has spoken up and hope that we can make this place better in the future. With this, though, I believe my points have been made. At this point, it's in the staff's hands and I'll be exiting the thread.
last edit by Mint on Aug 6, 2022 15:29:22 GMT -5
mnt#0001 has written 36 posts
Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion reduxAug 6, 2022 15:41:30 GMT -5
LazyNeko
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Right, first of suggestion wise, it was discussed and considered the first time before deciding it wasn't in the interest of the site. Now being brought up again and seeing as we have new staff members it was once more discussed and honestly staff has been in an agreement that an anonymous poll would just do way more harm than good it could. Considering you already could do that in this very thread or messaging staff

An anonymous poll is just another veil that would allow whoever or some rando from the internet stumbling on it to not only just ruin the data gathering of it but also use it as a tool of harassment. Something that is also a major point seeing as this would allow a person to target someone, they don't like by either going as far as to fake messages to just gathering a clique and chasing out/ targeting other members and creating this whole issue in an effort to get rid of a person or chase them away from something desired.

This already happens and adding a way for people to not show their names would actually do the opposite of fixing things and instead increase negativity even more so.

Now as that wasn't the only thing throw in the thread and various opinions and issues not only around the suggestion but in general have been mentioned I'll throw My opinion on the matter. So far beyond wanting to get to a position and strip others from a spot I haven't truly seen exactly where those complaints come from besides personal friction between members. Which if it is in the public space aka the site discord then mention it and staff would gladly monitor it but beyond that and moving things about judging personal interactions becomes so hard, because you never get the full truth there.

There have been mentions of being harassed or afraid to voice an opinion due to fear of getting banned. Like seriously? If that was the case then this thread wouldn’t be existing, would it? Or a lot of the other cases that have happened throughout the site history. Or times when staff was actively plotted against and an "US vs Them” mentality was being cultivated on purpose in order to cause discord . Or the fact that the people that actually got banned on site are pretty low in number, considering it's lifespan, and they were banned for really good reasons.

I've also been here for quite a while as well now and can safely say that I have no idea where that is coming from, considering the things I've seen in my tenure. Some of the shit staff has had to deal with was grey hair inducing, literally in my case, and you know what? Despite some people being pretty prominent in some of those messes, they are still here to this day. So no, no one has ever been stopped from voicing their opinion or punished for doing so in any official manner nor had they ever been harassed by staff or judged unfairly.

Despite the fact people often like to think this, staff doesn’t actually target people. Maybe sometimes personal intent could leak out but I can tell you that since I made staff all actual decisions and reviews were done in the most objective manner possible when it comes to approval and review process. Nor would suddenly people in this thread be made into pariahs or judged differently than any other member by staff and if you think that is the case regardless then I don’t what else to say.
last edit by LazyNeko on Aug 6, 2022 15:47:58 GMT -5
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Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion reduxAug 6, 2022 16:38:38 GMT -5
Mint
Don't be afraid of death, be afraid of the unlived life.
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I wasn't going to post again, but then ironically proved my point.

I spent a good 30 minutes writing out and editing a response for you, but literally worried I'd get banned or temp banned for even pointing out the obvious facts that have been laid out in front of you.

Think about that for a moment.

You volunteered to help with this site, you signed up for grey hairs. You can't sit around and keep power while you watch your site crumble. If the anonymous poll option isn't a route staff wants to take, then find another one. Leaving it at that is a cop-out.

I'll be dropping most of my characters and leaving discord. May keep one to keep my friends.

What an absolute shame...
last edit by Mint on Aug 6, 2022 16:39:14 GMT -5
mnt#0001 has written 36 posts
Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion reduxAug 6, 2022 16:58:21 GMT -5
Mika
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Again, I can only really speak for myself, so I'm going to say this and I'm unsure how much more involvement I'll have in this conversation following (because I think I've stated my beliefs and feelings clearly, and if my concerns are more narrowed than what's bothering other folk I don't want to muddle the conversation). 

I completely agree with Neko's critique on an anonymous tool due to how easy it would be to be abused, and it would do more harm than good in creating a healthy environment. I also think it points to what the bigger issue is. People have their frustrations, anger, issues, etc. and it's not dealt with in a healthy way. Creating an opportunity for more people to conspire, backstab, and turn against other members isn't something that should at all be encouraged or tolerated. I also know the staff deal with a great deal of stress--part of it comes with the role, but from what I've seen with conversations with staff members, a lot of it also comes from needless stress placed on them by members, too. Again, I've seen toxicity and abuse directed at everyone, not just members, not just staff. Which mostly just points to what my biggest problem is, that I'm hoping to speak up against, and wanting to start conversations about.

I don't think this is all staff's responsibility--in truth, my involvement in this discussion and conversation is really just about adding my voice and highlighting a problem I've seen prevalent in our community.

I think being afraid of being banned for speaking up about an issue someone has is a bit extreme, and likely fueled by emotions. Neko has said a great deal that I agree with and know to be true. An "us against them" mentality is--a mentality, not necessarily truth. However, my biggest concern is what you stated as "besides personal friction between members." I've seen a lot of friction between a lot of members, and it's mostly that which I take issue to. Just a few fights here and there is to be expected in a community, but from what I've been seeing, there seems to be frequent and consistent harm done among members (staff and regular alike), and I've not seen anything done about it. I would love to be wrong, truly.

But I've had issues with members and when I brought it up to staff, nothing was done about it. I've seen members actively try to screw over other members' plots and characters. I've seen people throw insults, use inappropriate language, speak with hostility and make other members feel unsafe to even engage in the community casually--let alone bring up suggestions and ideas. I get that there's some folk who are very vocal about their ideas being rejected a lot, but at the very least what I'm talking about are the people who come to me in DMs and have a general attitude of discouragement toward even trying to in the first place. I know there's some folk who are very loud about their frustrations--which is great. I'm talking about folk who aren't members anymore, or folk who did leave, or do stay quiet. Not because they're afraid necessarily of being banned, but there is a clear attitude of "no change will ever happen so don't even bother bringing up your ideas". Whether this notion has been caused by members giving that impression, or staff saying things that hold that same attitude.

I've seen members be lashed out at, be micro-aggressed, or otherwise mistreated and bullied. I've seen when our community has created environments that can be outright hostile with-one another, so even if there's members who aren't afraid of a staff member banning them from site, every time they login they fear interacting with the community because they know this drama happens, they've experienced hostility or mistreatment, and they've not seen anything done to change that. It's disheartening. I've had friends leave the discord or site because of it. I've seen members who keep their chins up and stay hopeful, but the environment still takes it's toll on their mental health--and this should be a fun and enjoyable environment for everybody. And from what I've heard, when they go to staff about it, nothing is done. Or when it's staff that has these issues--what can they do other than just vent to their peers?

Yes, there's always the solution of leaving. I think that's obvious. But I love this site, and I love this community. I'd like to see a change where this isn't what the situation is.

For me, I'd just like to see more discussions on this problem. I see a lot of frustration and pain and no real conversations about it. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I'd like to think that if we as a community are more conscious with how we treat each-other, and work toward holding one-another accountable, it would be a step. I'm working on holding myself more accountable when I mess up, I don't want people to be afraid to confront me if they have problems with me, and I'd hope to grow from my mistakes when I make them, and I'm unsure if that's the only part I can play in any solution to our community. 
has written 123 posts
Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion reduxAug 6, 2022 17:03:39 GMT -5
Uchiha Miroru
Just don't give up on me! We can figure this out!
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age 14 years old birthday 7/9 rank Chuunin occupation Jinchuuriki
I'm not gonna lie, it is- EXTREMELY concerning to see staff downplaying the need for this in the face of so many people explaining how their personal experiences with the other people on site have given them a far more concerning view of how everyone feels than seems to be making it to staff.

I've heard people talk about being driven to tears on voice chat by verbal abuse that continued even after they started crying.
I've watched staff lash out publicly, both in responses to appeals as well as in Discord chat channels.
I've watched staff minimize legitimate complaints- heck, it's happening right here.

When like a dozen people speak up together and tell you that your site's culture has reached the point where people are scared to speak up about things that bother them, you need to stop and listen, not make excuses and minimize. Being scared to speak up is not mutually exclusive with speaking up anyway. When I first saw this thread, I stayed silent because of exactly the sort of accusatory, dismissive responses that are now cropping up from staff to disregard and minimize what we're saying as if it's all based around not getting what we want.

That is intellectually dishonest and tremendously frustrating when coming from staff.

Even if you dismiss every scrap of rules reform as greed- which I repeat you should not do- you're still left with massive problems.

The rules do not line up with staff's vision of the site. That should be fixed.
Worse, there are certain topics involving some of those inaccurate rules that leave multiple members of staff to "get frustrated", which is understandable- and then insult, deride, dismiss, and talk down to anyone that brings up complaints or suggestions related to them, which is not understandable or acceptable.
When that happens, and in other situations where people are mistreated, there are- to date, to my understanding at least- zero consequences for those doing the abusing. Staff seems determined to stand up for and make excuses for that abuse.
As a result, faith that anything will or can bring about even minor improvements to the site rules, much less stop staff abuse of the player-base, is waning. Rapidly.
And now that we're asking for a way for everyone, including those who do not feel safe speaking up here, to express their own experiences in a way that prevents being targeted by the consistent instances of negative attention from staff that we just explained?
That's too much to ask.

It's NOT just Yamato. And that's part of the problem. While there are a few exceptions, general staff response to direct criticism of staff behavior or suggestions for change seems to be "no, that isn't a problem," "you're reading the rules wrong, stupid," "you're just being greedy," "tell me who else actually thinks that way so I can scream at them too," or, apparently, "we don't care, just leave."

I've talked to, I think, every member of staff besides Neko personally and directly on varying conversation topics.
I don't think any of you actually don't care that we're here or don't care when abuse happens.
But right now, that is the experience and expectation that staff has created for the site's current player base.
When we tell you this is what's being done to us, and we ask for that to change, we need you to take us seriously. Because what you're hearing is just those of us willing to deal with the negativity that crops up when we complain. And we're doing it because, despite knowing that there's going to be negativity, all of us want the site to get better.

So... just listen. Please stop making excuses for staff mistreatment. Please stop minimizing the things your players are telling you are huge problems. So we can fix them together.
Threnody has written 1,193 posts
Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion reduxAug 6, 2022 19:07:26 GMT -5
Shizu Amaya
Nindo Goes Here: Edit Profile > Personal > Most Recent Status
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age 21 years old birthday December 1st rank Adv. Genin occupation
The mod deflection is not it. If people have grievances and situations where they feel attacked, singled out etc, then those feelings are valid whether or not you think it is true. We also have several members and some staff agreeing with these statements. It seems staff are focusing more on the RP positions which I don't think is the point of this conversation and only a small facet. It would be cool to see accountability and a willingness to implement something instead of "I don't believe it therefore it's not true." Whether or not these situations are perceived or real, I think the proper response should be "How can we move forward making sure everyone is comfortable in the future." The response lacks empathy.

For transparency, I've only have 90% positive interactions with staff. But that doesn't mean I have seen very negative ones with other people.
Owl has written 219 posts
Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion reduxAug 6, 2022 23:27:51 GMT -5
Wahei
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age "15" years old birthday "September 28th" rank Chūnin occupation Iryō (Medic); Ne; 'Scientific'
I've once told I'd never expect something like this thread happening. So I congratulate Necro for the initiative, Mint and others for their words of courage.

I also want to say that I now realize that I was wrong in my long term feeling of being singled out in this community. Having all those message made me realize that I'm not. Because a lot of people has also been affected by the same toxicity as I've been. And that's even worse.

And I, as an one year tops player, feel represented by your words. And I've never stood up for anything ICly as have been suggested, except for what meant the integrity of my character. Don't want undig buried corpses here, but the moment I most felt singled out and not welcome in this community was at the time my character was taken during a training thread by another village's authorities. And my point is not related directly to the ICly circumstances, but to OOCly ones. Specially the fact that all the things related to what happened to my character was decided behind closed doors. I had the lucky that people stood up for me, though I was not even included in that conversation. Staff treated me like a 4yo child who misbehaved. Time lapse was broken for the interest of one party and I said: doing this would jeoperdize my character integrity. Take my implanted byakugan if you want, I don't care. But keep his integrity at pace. There plenty ways to justify not breaking the time line, specially for his lawful nature (this is me pretty much beggin to J who was basically the only staff member who reached me for this conversation after I message him). This happened again when I found out a Staff member - who never talked to me in any stance - were accusing me of being a rule breaker because I was busy at the day and advancing stuff in a thread by voice notes so I could edit my thing when I got home. But all this was pointed out in public channels, without me being marked, by someone who don't even know me. Not needed to discuss if that's acceptable or not (though it's not prohibided by the rules). But a DM asking me what was happening and, being the case, asking me to stop would be enough for me to suspend it. The problem is, as a player, member of this community, I can't expect reasonableness. And even considering myself someone that does not get easily affected to this kind of things, the fact is I got stressed out by this attitude which was more than once rude and autocratic. And worse than that was the mannipulation and campaign agains me. It get to the point that people who not even know me went to chat to call me a "troublemaker" and "rule breaker" because of what STAFF members were saying to me.

I don't want to repeat what has already been said, tho I am someone who feels affected and not comfortable of having to rely on asking anything to staff. And took me long time to get back my muse to play here again, or start calling my friends to play here because I'm afraid they pass through the same I did.

So to summarize, here's some keywords of what I think that happens here (most with me but I also witnessed to others) and that I'd certainly submit into a feedback system as proposed: favouritism; double standards; metagaming and powerabusing; rudeness; toxicity; being singled out and not welcome; mental harassment; aggressive and ofensive behavior; important decisions discussed behind doors and not properly disclose methods and informations;

But the worse is still something I call "god-complex" of staff members, and I highlight this point for one basic reason: as much as I appreaciate the volunteer work made by staff members and the importance for this work, and the most I like this site and what we can play here, this is - and it will always be - a simple game. Picturing that someone feels superior to others because of their position in a forum RPG makes me real sick.

That said, few members of this community is the reason that made me last despite of all of this. ; ; ; ; ; ; and few others who played or recently started playing with me, or treat me well in discord (like :D). I thank you all and, again, congratulations to those who took the stand in spite to that awkward feeling of retaliation and waste of time for doing so - that even now I yet feel to my bones.

PS: I want to thank those STAFF members who I've mostly talked to and treated me nicely to not be unfair with them: ; ; . and if I forgetting someone, I am so sorry.
PS2: This is an opportunity for STAFF to make a better environment to everyone. Please, don't be deffensive. Think about the future of this community.
PS3: I'm not native English speaker so forgive me but my grammar sucks.

last edit by Wahei on Aug 6, 2022 23:32:59 GMT -5
MissingNo has written 491 posts
Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion reduxAug 7, 2022 17:32:00 GMT -5
Bloo
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Hey guys. Not trying to get into the stink but I guess posting here is kind of doing just that. My opinions are this. Do we need an anonymous survey of every person on site to see it they're happy? No. The idea is wild in practice, expecting everyone to be on the same boat with complaints and praises. Lots of things happen on site that people would love or hate if they were paying attention. Not everyone is. Someone in chat once a week, playing just their own character and not going after anything thats hard to get might love the site think everything is fine, but if they knew a story of someone wanting and getting shut down might side with them.

To address issues that you're not happy with, I think we need to work on appeals and the rulings as a culture. Sharp referenced the Natsu incident recently, where a member was flamed for trying to get a written site rule enforced. Flamed by staff, to make it worse. Things like that make people afraid to say their opinions about things in general.

If we want to make it easier to speak up, we need to triple down on rule number one of the server. Be respectful. Especially staff, and since Sharp said it double especially Yamato. If there's an issue, bring it up respectfully. If you're staff and you disagree with the issue they brought up, shoot it down respectfully. People are afraid to bring things up, even respectfully, because of a history of staff responding disrespectfully. Which is again, fundamentally, breaking the first and arguably most important rule.

Secondly, which goes back to the first. The rules are here for a reason. The minimum post requirements for a player is crazy low. It's what, two posts every three months? That's the lowest I've ever seen. The second big issue is limited slots. Limited slots have the same low, really really really low, reqs as everyone else. People are mad about those slots being taken by lesser active people. The one time I've seen that, again crazy low, req try to be enforced, a staff member flamed the member for even trying to have it enforced. In a really gross and rude way. I see a few options to fix this. One, refer to the first thing I said and make sure everyone is respectful. Two, make the retiring of a slot something that isn't discussed. If a member requests a slot to be released due to inactivity- again, to my knowledge is two posts in 90 days- have staff look at it like a checklist. Yup they haven't posted, slots open, don't care who had the slot.

I personally think we should raise reqs on certain limited slots. I know this is a casual site, but two posts in 90 days as like... a kage or a jin or a sage? That's crazy low. There's three sages a village, 1 kage and 1 jin. Those 5 people taking them slots should be made aware they're agreeing to a higher standard of posting and be held to it imo.

That said, official LOA's can be added for various reasons maybe? Mental health for three months or something, have the character sit a round. Staff will have to approve it to make sure it's not excessive and all, but honestly I feel like if someone can't find the time to make two posts in 90 days more than once a year... they probably shouldn't have a limited slot.

TLDR; Don't think we need a hidden survey, think we should normalize having complaints and appeals. Also suggested solutions to the complaints I most frequently hear.
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Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion reduxAug 8, 2022 1:40:28 GMT -5
cocoa
Reflect carefully upon your actions.
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Hey all. I've been doing my best to keep up with this thread, but I've just finally had the time to sit down and fully read it and totally formulate my thoughts into a digestible form. I'm going to do my best to go through all the points raised here and reply to them. If I miss anything out, please feel free to reply with questions or additional responses.

1) Anonymous Survey: One of the reasons that we do not engage with anonymous reports is because it is a system that skirts accountability and is too easy to abuse. We have public facing suggestions and appeals as a matter of transparency.

We want a written record of things that are suggested on site because it is important to be able to say "here is what was suggested/pointed out and here is what was done about it." If there is no public-facing way of showing off these recommendations, there is no way for you as site members to hold us accountable to following through on these anonymous reports. If you submit something anonymously, how are you guaranteed that it went through and we received it? How are you guaranteed that we are looking at it? How do you ask for updates or a follow-up? You cannot do any of these things with a suggestion that has gone through anonymously.

There is also the matter of transparency on the member side. If people are able to make anonymous reports, they are able to say whatever they want. People can submit multiple repeat reports pretending to be other people. I do not want to hold this suspicion towards site members, because most of you do not engage in this behavior, but I have had it done to me by some members even without the allowance of anonymous submission. I have had people come to me and say that "so-and-so was being bothered by another so-and-so," then I reach out to the parties in conflict to get the full story and learn that the report was a total lie/misrepresentation/etc. These things are a concern, this is an easily abused feature of having anonymous reporting.

I appreciate the concerns people have, but we want a site that has open communication. There is nothing that can be solved by anonymous surveys that we cannot resolve through open and honest communication. I understand the concerns people have with talking openly, but we are a social community and remaining accountable to our fellow members, to ourselves, and to our moderation team is an important part of being a functioning community.

However people may feel or how it may seem, we do NOT judge people for bringing forward their issues and we always do our best to try to resolve them. If you are having issues with members attacking one another, gaslighting one another, or abusing one another, please bring these forward to the attention of staff. We are not omniscient and cannot be watching channel at all hours or moderating things that occur in DMs. We have to be told this is happening to do anything. Don't sit silently and deal with people being rude. Screenshot, get corroborative evidence, bring it to us. We can handle it much more readily in open conversation than we can through an anonymous survey where we have NO way to follow up.

If you have an issue with a specific staff member, go to admin. Or if you don't want to post a suggestion publicly, go to a trusted or favorite staff member and ask them to return it to the group. This is a much better method of ensuring an open line of communication if public conversation is absolutely off the table.

2) Site roles/Competitive nature/Positions: This one is an incredibly complicated and obviously very sensitive subject. I'm going to try to break this down carefully.

As many people in this thread have said, we are a casual site. We expect very minimum posting because we want to encourage people to maintain their plots and their threads even if they cannot do so at a fast pace.

This has been referenced as "favoritism," or creating a "competitive environment," but I want to ask - can we not say the same thing of the opposite stance? If we only favor people who demonstrate activity for certain positions, we create an environment where the Most active players feel the most right towards special roles. We create an even more competitive environment, with individuals feeling that others are More or Less deserving of specific roles. If there is any lapse in activity for any reason, it will be something that can be jumped on, warred over.

We don't WANT that. We as a staff believe that everyone has value to site, all players deserve a right to try to play out the plots they're engaging in, even if they cannot maintain the breakneck pace that some other members can.

I know that sometimes this is disappointing, that sometimes this means that you cannot make the character you want or engage in the plot you want, but if you feel that way you also have to look at and empathize with the other side. How would you feel if every time someone who thought they had a Better Idea for your plot came along, they could uproot you from your position and archive your character? We making removing and losing characters a relatively difficult thing for this reason. We do not want to take people's characters away if we do not have to!

Mechanisms for this exist and will remain, because sometimes it is unavoidable that it is the right thing to do for the site to clear these positions. But they come with specifications for a reason. In order to remove a member, we want evidence that a hand has been extended, that plots have been offered, and that no effort is being made on the part of the individual holding the position.

It remains my firm belief that the best way to combat inactivity is to attempt to plot with slow site members. It is very easy to say "this member never posts," but how many people actually reach out to that member with ideas? If you have an idea for a role, a site concept, an arc, why not find a way to engage with it from another angle, bring it to a site member who might be struggling? We can say that someone doesn't have legitimate reasons all we want, but there are many personal and private things an individual might be going through that can cause them not to post on site with frequency. Making the assumption that they are just holding a slot for no reason, out of malice or selfishness, without any interest in continuing their character's plot, is not something we want to do, or a site environment we want to cultivate.

We do not want to establish rules that could create a site environment where when someone wants a specific role, they freeze the current holder out and ignore the chance at interesting threads with them on the hopes they'll eventually slip and fall into the window where they can be removed. We want our site members to be collaborative, considerate, and to attempt to move each other's plots forward as well as their own.

That's why so many site mechanics are built around this idea. The fact that working on missions and trainings together is easier, the fact that you require lesson threads to graduate the academy, the fact that you can get sensei exp for trainings - the core ethos of our site is one of teamwork and cooperation. There are probably things we can do to better promote this, sure. But my point is that it is very against the spirit of the site to emphasize rules which rotate people out of their positions.

We can attempt to clarify the rules, naturally, and we are in talks to do just this, but I do not believe that the rules are written differently from staff intention in this instance.

3) Staff: This is a very brief point, but it is one that I wanted to acknowledge and discuss. I saw commentary in here that we only bring on members of the site who we are buddy-buddy with. This is not true. There are people on site who I would like to see promoted that we have passed over. There are people who others have recommended who I have voted against. Staff is not a monolith. We try to the best of our ability to make objective decisions about who we feel will be the best fit for site. This is why the staff addition is such a slow and infrequent process. We want people who understand the core values of the site and have a very strong understanding of the mechanics, but also people who can challenge our current views and mechanics in very specific ways. A lot of deliberation and conversation goes into deciding on new staff members and the additions are RARELY unanimous. I can't think of a staff addition that has been unanimous even before I came on. I think my addition at the time of my promotion wasn't unanimous.

On the matter of being afraid of being temp-banned, etc., by us - I want to know where this perception has come from? When have we ever temp-banned someone just for pointing out a problem or disagreeing with us? The most recent instance of temp-banning I can think of is a public argument between two site members in the discord. We are very, very lenient with our discipline. We utilize a three-strike system and have only ever timed people have when they were becoming incredibly heated or engaging in verbally abusive behavior in a public forum, such as the ask-a-staff. We do not temp-ban people for suggestions. You can recommend things all day long and we're not going to do anything to you or your account. I have had people say some truly abysmal things to me in the heat of the moment on the site and shrugged it off. Most of staff, regardless of temperament, has thick skin, as it is necessary to engage in reviewing material with a userbase that can be very passionate about their vision and their goals. If you genuinely feel you may get in trouble for sharing your perspectives, this may be a view you want to reassess on the basis of most of staff's actual behavior.

4) Community, Discord: This goes back to a bit of what I touched on in part 1, but I wanted to give this its own dedicated section because this is a very big issue I'm seeing referenced. There is a lot of animosity between site members, a lot of argument, people being driven to tears in the VC... I do not use the VC, I am not always in the general chat. I do feel very badly that this is happening, and I want it to stop. I think we could do more to be harsher about member behavior, I do think we can crack down on this, but there is also very little we can do if we are not told. I appreciate you all communicating your experiences here, but I've never had these things brought to me, or sent out as a PM to all staff members. We do want to help, but if people are rude and you just choke it down and then move on until the pot boils over and you can't take it anymore, we cannot help. Chat is very fast moving. We cannot possibly keep track of every duo of user's exact dynamic (are they having a genuine argument? Are they joking? Do they just talk like that to each other? Was there greater context?) when there are over a hundred users. Document! Tell us! Let us help you! I am willing to advocate and be strict, but I need the information first in order to do anything with it.
last edit by cocoa on Aug 8, 2022 1:44:46 GMT -5
Cocoa has written 302 posts
Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion reduxAug 8, 2022 2:00:20 GMT -5
j.
feel free to pm me with any issues <3
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j. Avatar
groupnull
age 27 years old birthday rank occupation
I think the most important thing that needs to be said, above all that follows this one line, is that I have read everything within this thread up until this point and there is not one post within it that I wholly agree or disagree with. There is merit spread throughout and I believe it’s crucial that you all understand that staff, at every level, is aware of what’s being said here. We’re reading all of it and we’re trying our best to handle this as appropriately as possible.

But I think there’s a fundamental miscommunication that’s blocking all necessary dialogue here and that’s that staff and members aren’t actually different at all. I’m going to avoid discussing any of the more aggressive words shared within this thread as I genuinely don’t believe that doing so right here and right now will be of any benefit to us coming to a conclusion together. But I would appreciate that it is understood that staff isn’t the enemy here. As some have already stated, this environment we find ourselves in is one we’ve found through mutual effort. None of us are blameless, but at the same time not one of us should feel like their voice isn’t heard.

We hear you and I hear you. I’ve read through this thread and these posts several times over and I assure you that your voices are acknowledged and valid. There are many thoughts and opinions here and I want to thank everyone who has shared thus far and anyone who will continue to do so moving forward.

We are listening and we are trying. I’m going to avoid mentioning the activity thing because that, while one of the most discussed topics within this thread, isn’t the point here. I have no issue with that being the direction this goes but as of right now that is very far from the point.

The point, as far as I can see, is how everyone feels. You could argue one way or another that something is fair or not, that something is valid criticism or whatever you want all day. But the point is that we feel this way. When we feel a certain way it’s because of the way people have spoken to us or things we’ve witnessed over weeks, months or years. And even if someone tells you that’s wrong or that you’re blowing things out of proportion; you still feel that way. And that’s merit enough to have this conversation.

Things have been harsh lately, as many have already stated. The topic of an anonymous survey itself is hard if only because it would be very difficult to act upon anything when we don’t understand what or who is causing it. If staff receives 50 complaints about how j. has been cursing out members, there’s nothing to stop one member from sending all fifty of them or to stop me from sending them myself. I honestly, personally, don’t support an anonymous survey but that doesn’t mean this stuff can’t be communicated.

It might seem like staff is a hivemind at times because we do like to share our thoughts after a long discussion in one response, usually from an administrator. Typically any ruling is discussed for a long time before it’s acted upon. For example, this thread has been the sole topic amongst staff every day since it was started. We all have different opinions on what has been said and the actions taken surrounding it. These are my feelings. I may be a member of staff but I am a member of N:FB first.

What’s way more concerning is that there’s this grander issue at play of speaking up and the fear of doing so. That is unacceptable and it genuinely hurts me to hear that’s how people feel. Not that any of you have hurt me by feeling that way, but that somehow there has been cultivated this mentality that staff is an unapproachable evil and that we all just cackle in the distance as we take turns harassing people. If someone is harassing you in literally any way I want to hear about it. We, as staff, want to know about it. Because there’s nothing any of us can do if it isn’t brought to us.

I’m upset that that’s something that has to be said at all. I try to be open and available, and even kind every now and again, and if I’m the problem I encourage you to reach out to another staff member to complain in dms or anywhere else you feel comfortable. This conversation needs to happen and if it happens here that’s okay too. While this isn’t exactly the purpose of this board, this thread has kind of transcended that. I can’t speak for everyone on the staff team but I have no issue with this thread staying a window for people to voice their concerns regarding this topic.

Again, I can’t speak for everyone, but these issues that are making the site not fun or a toxic environment can and should be communicated to anyone on staff. From my perspective, there is absolutely zero stigma amongst staff members when people complain about something. Now, at that same time, I understand that my perspective isn’t everything. Anyone could be receiving angry messages in their direct messages or on site and I can’t see that stuff. Again, this is something I beg you to bring to staff’s attention.

This is from something Mika wrote in one of their posts:
"Accountability needs to take place, and changes need to be made. Changes can be frequent and fluid, and listening to the community and allowing for change is how we allow for growth--if we cling to the rigid structures of the past we will never move forward.”

I 100% agree. This is said beautifully and I want to hammer home that I fundamentally agree with most of what’s already been said. We can discuss the form of that accountability but I genuinely believe that if that is what the majority of members feel, especially those who are particularly passionate, that it is the direction that needs to be taken. N:FB isn’t perfect and its rules aren’t meant to stand forever. We’ve made updates and changes throughout the years and even during my very short tenure. A good example of this, as daunting a subject as it is to bring up, is Rule 10. This is something staff is actively working on rewording. That all started from a post on this exact board. Any other suggestions are more than welcome and we want to see change as much as you do. That growth is going to be something that is fostered through communication that occurs between members and staff alike and this board is a perfect place to voice your concerns. Sometimes it may seem like these things take a while, and that’s because they do, but in no way does that mean they aren’t being addressed. It sucks that you have to take my word for that but we’ll try to get stuff out as quickly as we can.

At the end of the day I want it to be understood that staff does genuinely care about what you all have to say. People feel targeted and harassed and all other sorts of terrible things and that isn’t okay in any way, shape or form. And we want to help. We want to do everything in our power as staff members to ensure that this is a healthy and comfortable space for as many people as we can! And I understand that that’s what everyone else wants as well. We can make that happen together. Cocoa said it brilliantly in their last paragraph. We all want to help you but we need you to communicate with us as much as possible. That’s what you’re doing right here and right now. Don’t let anyone dissuade you from expressing your valid concerns. If you need privacy, please reach out to anyone on staff you feel comfortable with. We are your advocates and we will do everything in our power to make this place as cozy of a home as we can for you as many of you that will let us.
j. has written 51 posts
Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion reduxAug 8, 2022 4:22:10 GMT -5
TACTICIAN
farewell, good hunter. may you find your worth in the waking world.
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TACTICIAN Avatar
groupnull
age twenty-seven years old birthday nov 10 rank legendary sannin occupation bad bitch
In a similar boat to Cocoa; today is the first chance I’ve had to actually sit down at my computer all week, and keeping track of this thread and the discord is something I’ve mostly only been able to do on furtive ten minute breaks at work. I’ve been ruminating on it, but we had initially agreed within staff chat to present a unified response represented by a member of the admin team. Because so many members are echoing the same perspective of staff being a hivemind, I figured, heck it, let me throw my own thoughts and suggestions in the ring here.

I feel very strongly about the benefits of honest and direct communication. While I appreciate the sentiment behind the suggestion of an anonymous survey, I don’t believe—as a few other folks have already stated—that anonymity can achieve anything that can’t be achieved better and more cleanly through direct communication.

I would personally like to see us revise both the site and discord rules of "Be Respectful” and "Don’t Harass People” to lay out more explicit expectations for behavior on site and on discord. The general sentiments we have listed in both places are fine, but they might benefit from more examples of specific types of behavior that would merit a warning or a strike. I’d also like to see, maybe included in the general rules, a description of our internal disciplinary warning/strike/ban structure and how that functions.

Temp bans in the discord are issued when a conversation is getting out of hand and the members involved refuse to let an argument drop, and will typically last anywhere from 24 to 72 hours depending on the severity of the incident. IP bans are a separate matter entirely and are issued only after a member receives three strikes. Strikes and warnings are recorded internally within the staff board, so no one is receiving a ban prematurely, and certainly not over something like making a suggestion or complaint or disagreeing with a staff member’s ruling or perspective. I hope that being more transparent about how the disciplinary system works would be a good step towards disavowing the notion that staff is eager to pass out bans like candy just because they’re annoyed that day.

The most important point brought up in this thread is, in my opinion, the burgeoning culture of toxicity and frustration that has been bubbling over for what seems like quite a long time. A lot of frustration and conflict seems to be happening in DMs and in voice call. Staff can’t and frankly shouldn’t police what happens in DMs, and unless we limit the voice channel to only be usable when a gmod or admin is present, it’s impossible for that to be consistently monitored, since there’s no logs of what’s being said. I thought it might be helpful to lay out some options for folks to pursue when conflict, rudeness, harassment, or any other inappropriate behavior is happening in various channels.

DMs: if someone is coming into your discord DMs to be rude or disrespectful, or harass you about something, disengage and block the member in question. You do not have to tolerate it. Then, DM a staff member with screenshots or another kind of evidence so that we’re aware of the member’s behavior and can monitor the site and discord for further misbehavior. I don’t think it’s staff’s place to issue disciplinary actions over what happens in DMs, but I do encourage everyone to set clear boundaries with who you allow to contact you outside the public forum.

In voice call: if there’s no mod present and similar disrespectful or aggressive behaviors are occurring, I would personally strongly encourage the person being aggressed to disengage and report the incident to a staff member as soon as possible. As I said before, there’s no logs for us to track what has been said, but if the incident is reported then it can be documented and we will be more aware of any patterns of behavior that emerge.

In general chat: if an argument is getting heated or members are being disrespectful or inflammatory, please tag the global mod and admin roles and/or DM a staff member, so that we’re made aware of the situation and can intervene appropriately.

On site: for conflicts, issues, or arguments occurring on site, please DM or PM a staff member with a link to the thread (or a screenshot of the PM) in which the incident has occurred so that we’re made aware of it and can, again, intervene appropriately.


Ideally, my feeling is that transparency and clear, consistent communication is paramount in all of the situations I’ve laid out. If a member brings a problem to a staff member, that staff member is then responsible for being the liaison between the complainant and the rest of staff, and communicating with the member about what actions will or will not be taken to address the issue. While making a complaint does not guarantee that formal disciplinary action will be taken, at the very least we should be having conversations with all the parties involved in order to address the problem in question and clear up any conflict or issues in communication. I feel strongly that a critical part of a mod or admin’s responsibility to the site is to act as fair mediators. It is work, yes, but it’s the most important work we can do to serve the site and its members. Reviewing sick jutsus doesn’t count for shit if everyone’s pissed off at each other and we’re not working to resolve it.

The obvious difficulty with everything I’ve said is that it all requires members to be comfortable and able to communicate directly with a staff member. Even if someone does have a trusted staff member they feel comfortable speaking to about an issue, they then also have to trust that the rest of the staff team will be responsive and empathetic. Given the current sentiment laid out (at least publicly) by about a dozen individual members, I realize that this is a hard thing for me to ask, but I do believe that this is the most productive path forward.

Change can be slow. The reason why so many discussions that we’ve promised (lookin’ at rule 10) and changes we’ve been talking about making are so slow to be enacted is because staff isn’t a hivemind, and we frequently disagree over how things should be handled. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve paced around for an hour ranting about how a rule doesn’t make sense or how poorly I think something is worded. This, combined with the sheer quantity of staff members, timezone differentials, and IRL responsibilities means that change can be, and is frequently, slow. I understand that this must be frustrating from a member perspective, who might perceive this as plain inaction—and it’s frustrating from the staff side too, because we want to fix things and clear up miscommunication as much as anyone else.

I’m frustrated and upset that people are leaving, and I feel terrible that things have gotten this bad. I was a member for only four months or so before being hired onto the mod team, and while my member experience was overall great and my staff experience has been generally fulfilling and fun, I’ve also endured my share of rude treatment and disrespect. Cocoa said: "I have had people say some truly abysmal things to me in the heat of the moment on the site and shrugged it off. Most of staff, regardless of temperament, has thick skin, as it is necessary to engage in reviewing material with a userbase that can be very passionate about their vision and their goals.” I don’t think shrugging it off, or taking it on the chin, should be expected of members or of staff. I love this site, I love being a moderator and helping people achieve their plots, character goals, and fine-tune their creative ideas (within the restrictions of our written rules!), but this is a fun hobby that I pursue for $free.99, as do all of us. No one can or should be expected to endure any kind of harassment or abuse. At least four people have already been driven off site within the past week; I really don’t want to see anyone else go if it can be helped.

I hope some of the suggestions that I’ve made are useful or productive to further conversation. As a mod, I feel very strongly that advocating and mediating for members is one of my primary responsibilities to the site. I hope to prove I can uphold that, and I apologize for not sharing my thoughts on this issue sooner.
owochimawu has written 71 posts
Forum Satisfaction Survey Suggestion reduxAug 8, 2022 4:29:39 GMT -5
Miyamoto Ikana
Nindo Goes Here: Edit Profile > Personal > Most Recent Status
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Miyamoto Ikana Avatar
groupMist Shinobi
age 15 years old birthday January 7th, -2 SD rank Chuunin occupation Operations Team 2
I'd like to throw in my own thoughts on this perspective.

I feel as if an anonymous survey would not necessarily be enough to cause about any change in community and the way things are ran, more so because it does not give an idea of how active the people are or influential people are in the terms of their complaints. While it shouldn't matter, and the opinions and complaints of any individuals should be looked at equally, I'm rather certain it wouldn't be looked at in such a manner. Though that may be from my personal perspective and bias. I feel like that the staff would care more if it were village leaders or very active and influential people in terms of RP speaking up as opposed to the average member. But I digress.

As a sidenote. I feel like the general point that people are trying to get across, or are skirting around, is that members of the site feel estranged from staff, and feel as if they cannot reach out to them, nor trust that they are able to voice their thoughts comfortably without being frankly either disregarded, ill treated, or otherwise. In other words, the concern is that there is less reason to be confident with staff, mainly because of the stigma that staff shall behave like a social clique and favor each other, and protect each other when it is convenient, but will not enforce the rules to protect the average member. Or alternatively, that they don't care for the average member at all.

This is due to the behaviors staff at times implement towards members of the forum, as well as behaviors the staff has towards one another. It's not all about roleplay positions, and or limited slots, though it has partly to do with that situation. It's frankly about the feel of the community, and frankly, I'm of a general mixed opinion of the bag. Frankly, because I don't have many close friends on the forum, or members of the community that I could say would care or not if I'm gone or around. My general stance on staff in general is that I feel awkward around them, more often than not. Mainly, because it's difficult to think of staff as just normal members of the site I can approach. I usually stick quiet and in my own corner, mainly because I imagine people don't like me very much and I'm more so tolerated. I'd say I have associates on the server, but very few friends. 

I'd almost want to say I feel almost odd, or estranged from a lot of the site in general, but especially staff. It might be my general imagination, but I imagine if I feel estranged from the community and especially the staff, others probably feel the exact same way. I don't often approach staff much for threading opportunities either, mainly because the ones I have either just post once and then ignore when I tag them, or in some cases, have me start threads and then just never respond in them. Not saying all staff would do this, but it's been a thing. Not meaning to throw shade.

Frankly. I often remain quiet and remain in my little corner because I don't like drama. Nor do I imagine I am a particularly beloved member of the community. And I'm content with that. Looking at things from a staff perspective, I appreciate that they put in the effort to run things, keep things going, and handle affairs. I imagine they must get frustrated when people call them out, or generally disdain and call out their rulings. However, I must confess that if a substantial amount of people feel similarly about issues and problems, then it shows that the problem listed is valid.

We should come together to discuss what we as an RP community desire to see in terms of behaviors, both as staff and members, as opposed to discussing semantics on what problems are. In other words, it is duty of the average member if they have a problem to list their problems openly, clearly, and concisely, and duty for staff to listen to them in a manner that is as unbiased as possible. In the event that say someone did this, and an average member was assaulted for their honest opinion, then it only does prove and show that the problem is ever more valid. This is my stance.

I imagine these are some of the issues that people feel, some of which I might agree with:

Toxicity in Community.

Social Cliques.

Feeling Unvalued.



Ultimately, those three things I imagine are the root or the opinion of most other problems. Thank you. Please throw in your insight, and or DM me at dandead10#5303 if you generally wish to discuss in private your thoughts. I enjoy feedback.

last edit by Miyamoto Ikana on Aug 8, 2022 4:38:53 GMT -5
dandead10 has written 656 posts

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