[Sharp]

I believe that as it stands, fuinjutsu sole/primary should be removed as a spec.

1. The S-Rank options within fuinjutsu are predominantly centered around bijuu capture. Throughout the site's history, bijuu captures and transfers between hosts have been handled administratively in order to avoid disruption of the status quo. Instead of an absent jinchuriki being a problem, they are quietly binned and passed to the next approved applicant. Kage are given the tools to handle it, and so there isn't really even a chance for a specialist to be involved in the roleplay aspect of such transfers. I understand the reasoning for that is because there isn't a desire to punish a village for not having a player controlled specialist, but it ultimately leads to the specialization being an irrelevant choice. It's fine to not want normal players to mess with bijuu, but it is misleading to have a specialization that gives the idea otherwise.

Surveying the existing S-Ranks, only the following are not mostly about capturing bijuu.

Ura Shishō Fūinjutsu [Reverse Four Symbols Sealing Technique] - A kamekazi technique.
Furousen Fuin no Jutsu [Fountain of Youth Seal Technique] - A purely aesthetic technique.
Shuukei Seki Houin [Aggregate Gate Sealing Method] - a large vacuum technique (still mostly about bijuu but has some practical use).
source

Shiki Fūjin [Dead Demon Consuming Seal] - A kamekazi technique.
Source

Normal S-Rank techniques in other fields can do more than these things without the death requirements. The kamekazi techniques could easily sill be balanced if moved to A-Rank. The fountain of youth technique could be safely moved to A-Rank as well.

2. Making new S-Rank fuinjutsu is nebulous. Chakra absorption is banned. I believe sealing clan techniques is not allowed, which leaves it crippled in being used for defense against all but basic techniques. Sealing people isn't really S-Rank worthy by the description (and aside from some grandfathered things, I don't know sealing an enemy will even fly) and I am 90% sure that sealing multiple people won't fly. There just really aren't a lot of options out there that allow fuinjutsu to function at an S-Rank threat level that seem to fall in line with what the site deems as valid.

3. Removing the exception means fuinjutsu could receive clarifying rules. One of the biggest draw of fuinjutsu is the ability to have things prepared before you are in an emergency. When we aren't worried about people pre-preparing bijuu capture level seals, we can make general rules about things like how many seals one can have prepared prior to combat. We could also have clearer systems for sealing/unsealing similar to the kai page. It's no secret that a cursed seal plot is in talks, and fuinjutsu is one of canon ways to counter it, so it would probably make sense to iron that out beforehand so that it isn't just a judgement call.

In its current state, fuinjutsu is one of my favorite secondary specializations, but as a primary or sole specialization, it offers almost nothing to the average player's character. I propose that we remove it as an option and keep it secondary akin to senjutsu, or that the staff review and help design more jutsu/update policies to make the spec more on par with others.

Edit: I remembered that there is one outlying fuin/senjutsu character, so IDK if that could be the solution. I think it should still be considered with grandfathering or something, I don't really think grandfathering that special case would cause harm if they didn't want to give up the spec, because again it doesn't really offer anything practical.

[Yoshiko]

I feel there's some confusion from the previous review post on the Uzumaki seal you were attempting to create earlier. As some false conclusions have been drawn from us stating it was in discussion. However, I'd like to sort of clear the air of those and briefly explain why we didn't come out and say those things to begin with.

I'd like to start by saying sealing bijuu isn't something relegated solely to staff or kage's sealing, also giving the 'Akira' example as that did ICly happen, isn't just a background decision with no stakes either.

Secondly, I'd like to clear the air, that it'd been me not Wisp who'd asked for discussion on your jutsu. To be exact, I'd brought up to staff. 'Should we discuss this / should we discuss Fuuinjutsu in general.' Specifically in light to the fact that the jutsu listed kind of was a skeleton key with barely limitations and the jutsu you were making was a skeleton key with a limitation I don't think we should use. 'Specifically referring to it's effects working based on the spec level difference between the fuuinjutsu creator and the user of this jutsu breaking it.' On top of that it was brought up that the way the jutsu was written, it wasn't just an unseal, it wasn't just a transfer and it wasn't just it's own seal. It had sort of in line written it did all three, so it's vast versatility combined with it doing multiple things in one was the immediate raise to alarm. That stated, I had initially pitched if we should even discuss it, so I was at the times still open to us allowing the jutsu maybe even as it was written.

Thirdly, there are jutsu that seal special elements, but I believe they're limited to those clans. I am not exactly sure I think that is or should be the precedence to them. However, they do technically exist, so I wanted to point out those seals aren't unallowable.

THAT ABOVE ASIDE! I think the reason I brought up the discussion and the information you've brought up right now is valid. I do want us(staff) to have a discussion about this, especially the specialization as a whole. Seeing as I feel like the way it's jutsu are vastly written now isn't very fun and isn't actually combat intuitive. Which I think your highlighted S-ranks helps and when we get into the meat and potatoes of Fuuinjutsu, this gathered information will be very helpful. So thank you for the initial debrief, we will be discussing this topic in the future.

Okay, so to give some initial thoughts to the exact points, so there's something, because I do feel with the civilian job roles and war system. As well as us still working on organizing jutsu and adding handseals to old jutsu, we're just not going to have a quick response as a whole. So as an admin, I'd just like to give my two cents on my thoughts and proposals I'll be pushing.

1) I think you're right on the fact that the S-rank's for fuuinjutsu presently are either centered around jinchuuriki or are needlessly dangerous to the user. However I do believe some of this comes from a lack of Fuuinjutsu sole / primary users. Especially ones who stick around, I do know that we did have Moro's who had more so personal jutsu, to which those had additional SA to allow and make them harder to break. IDK, if they're the way we'd want high rank fuuinjutsu, but I do think there's a lot of room for nuance in Fuuinjutsu that simply hasn't been tapped. I think a lot of fuuinjutsu are focused on big things being sealed, but don't really reflect that power of the seal in a respectable manner? What I mean by that is, there isn't typically a strength or weakness intended. It's just high rank jutsu should seal amazing things and then accept whatever build up staff request. However, if a seal was perhaps based in an element and thus was breakable by it's weakness and so on could work.

2) Chakra Absorption as a ban has more or less been focused into chakra taken from one source and given to another. The idea for that ban is to prevent a loop of infinite chakra for any one player. There are jutsu to seal chakra, as well as seals for most elements, as fuuinjutsu is also the landmine or trap specialization. There could be like a wind seal designed to react to fire and the level of reaction could in fact push it's rank to A or S-rank. Not completely nullifying the specialization. IF we did away with fuuinjutsu, it's jutsu would need a new category IMO. Which would almost certainly be ninjutsu and I don't think Ninjutsu needs a buff. Granted I feel your proposal is when it leaves us as a specialization, it's jutsu or function might just go away and become a site function, which I'm not like totally opposed to, but it's at that point a major staff discussion point and definitely needs the time and vote of all to be ironed out.

3) Personally my intention and hope of bringing up the one jutsu was this, I think Fuuinjutsu functions almost too much like Genjutsu or better put it. Either completely works or it does absolutely nothing at all due to it's limitations and build up. I feel that's not a good place for it to be, so I am excited to see what staff can come up with on expanding upon this system.

I hope everything I've stated and explained gives you both a better understanding and feeling of things going on. As well as gives you hope that we'll be bringing something important to sites balance and overall RP enjoyment.

Thank you for bringing your concerns up to us~

[Sharp]

Hey there Yoshi, thanks for your reply.

On skeleton keys: the issue with not allowing a skeleton key fuinjutsu is that if a specialist has to learn the jutsu that they are trying to decode, then unsealing bijuu possessed by another village is impossible through means of fuinjutsu because the bijuu seals used are typically village restricted. There is also the issue that destroying a seal already somewhat functions as a skeleton key, but it is unclear if that works on high level seals.

Genjutsu's skeleton key is a C-Rank, and it provides a concise chart that acknowledges the strength of different specs to conventionally end a genjutsu. I don't necessarily think it needs to be the same, but I feel like there should be a defined process to steal a bijuu that can happen in play if a jinchuriki is compromised. Perhaps a good avenue would be the necessity of a dedicated thread to decode another village's seal once a jinchuriki is captured? I hesitate to call it a mission, but something that could be counter-missioned for sure: which would add a hail marry last attempt to save a village's Bijuu.

On transferring between seals: In some parts of the canon, killing a jinchuriki causes the chakra form of the beast to disperse and reform later somewhere else. In others, the beast appears after the host is killed. I believe we are using the version where the beast manifests nearby when the host dies. If I am correct that it is the case, unsealing itself is sort of a moot point without the ability to transfer, because otherwise killing the host is just as good as unsealing.

Its already pretty unlikely to happen, because most bijuu players don't run amuck like Akira- lol

On clan fuinjutsu seals: The odds that someone will battle someone in their own clan seriously are incredibly low. Those seals are typically more useful as something like a supplement to protect yourself or allies from those jutsu. I don't necessarily think that its a bad thing, but it does provide some limitations to what you can do to protect yourself with fuinjutsu at the S-Rank level. I don't think defense really has to be fuinjutsu's main combat advantage- I think the main advantage in most lower ranks is that you can prepare crazy combos with it if you have time to prep a bunch of seals.

On making jutsu: The biggest issue with the lack of s-rank development from past users is that I feel like I have to throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks because there aren't a lot of points of reference. I agree there is probably more that could be done to salvage it, it's just difficult.

Absorption: I know there are some jutsu sealing fuinjutsu that are kind of nifty, I'm just not sure where the line really falls. S-Rank defense things are always in a weird place because we obviously don't want to have things that create utter shutdown of an entire discipline, so most things that seem feasible seem more like A-Ranks to me.

Systems: I'd personally like to see more expansion in regards to a pitch Yamato had once: something about limiting pre-made seals based off of spec using the equipment limitations thread. However, I don't think it should be an exact copy because C-Rank fuinjutsu are much more powerful than c-rank items. I also wouldn't want buki/fuin people to have to choose between good equipment and good seals pre-made, ideally it'd be its own separate thing. I'd also just like something that is more concrete in the unsealing department.

I think that fuinjutsu A-Rank and below is competitive and has a lot of strengths. It is really just the top end stuff that really needs help to have a place. I will probably try to make the best of the situation and start making s-ranks to fill in the specialization, but I appreciate that you all are working on it in some form. I honestly usually avoid using S-Ranks as much as possible, but I think it would be nice if there were more reasons to pick up primary or sole fuinjutsu beyond maybe one day being in the right place at the right time to seal a big fish.

[Tateyama Yakitsukeru]

Replying from my character account mostly for relevancy! To point at the flesh-out of the spec jutsu you mentioned, its actually been a project of mine thus far to do as much. A lot of what I have been attempting is leaning into the idea of traps and tricks as I always have viewed Fuin as both a 'bag of tricks' and a supplementary specialization. If you can't use it to enhance other aspects of your kit, or at the very least show the ability to sprawl out a plan on a battlefield then its a hard to utilize specialization, which is why I rely on the narrative use of bombs and exploding scrolls on my character here (126 explosives in inventory lol).

In that sense, to me, at least, I view Fuin in the same light as a puppeter in that they rely a lot on using the tools they have made or are in their inventory to create a more elaborate plan then just 'I punch and kick' though that sentence is still indicitive of a lot of what you could do. In that way Fuin is actually an incredibly open specialization, its just that a lot of what you would want to do with it does fall into tricky or niche situations.

In that degree I would love to work with you on high-rank fuin as I agree some are likely necessary. With my recent attempts being more pushed towards filling out the senjutsu side of my character's toolkit, but I would absolutely prefer to explore the mundane end more.

--

Otherwise, most all of what Yoshiko said is all I could really say on the matter as staff, and most of the above is obviously personal view for the spec and a hand reach to work on a project for filling things out and hopefully we can straighten out the rest with enough time given.

[Kaze]

I usually do my best to stay out of these kind of conversations as I do tend to let the facts speak for themselves on matters that are both reflected in rulings and also in play upon the site in general.

Though considering that one of my main RPC is a Sole Sealing arts user, I think I should state my piece on this as well to the challenges that come with that Specialization.

-It can be increasingly difficult when many are able to use S-Rank techniques that are far more efficient and less time consuming, but the challenge it presents does make the payoff more satisfying upon having another player fall into a trap laid out. Still, much of that comes to chance or the other player not having the proper abilities to defend against the Seal placed. Though I will say that even this can be negated due to rulings and stat stacking. Of course, it can be left in the hands of mods, but it should not come to the point of having to make debates over each Seal usage.

Hence, why I usually stick to no higher than A rank seals. To which, I'm even less likely to use those as they are made for specifics. This leads to the next point.

-Seals are, by definition, meant to create restrictions, defenses, and at times, act as containment. While I do understand the desire to wanting more variety out of their description, I do find it to be a concern if we allow too much of this to be so open. We have to some degree seen techniques be misused and abused when allowed to have free reign with their definition of their abilities and this can become more of a headache to manage than it is to accept them on the site. So while I do agree with the notion of perhaps there being changes to the way Seals work on the site, I do think that the oversight should be strengthened upon it as to keep things from getting out of hand. The last thing anyone wants is a Seal that not only captures, but basically sears the target in containment with no way for them to get out. God modding is no fun, and it takes the enjoyment out of the game.

-Sealing arts are a challenge to get through approval as well, and this I believe is for the site's benefit. It keeps a balance on things and with good reason. This I believe, as well as the limited variations of them cause many to lose interest in being a Sole Fuinijutsu user. Perhaps suggestion for additional benefits can help change that, but within reason. I would be happy to offer assistance in making such techniques as well.

It really all comes down to Staff and member cooperation in meeting this desired need and being open to the prospects, but as Staff, we also have to ensure that we do not get one side an overall advantage, which Fuinijutsu can indeed do.

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[Sharp]

Jul 27, 2023 10:38:20 GMT -5 Kaze said:

I usually do my best to stay out of these kind of conversations as I do tend to let the facts speak for themselves on matters that are both reflected in rulings and also in play upon the site in general.
-

I can understand wanting to stay out of debates and discussions since they can get out of hand. I'm going to challenge your perspective a bit on this, but its nothing personal and just for the good of the discussion.

1. I like traps and I don't tend to use S-Ranks a whole lot really. The reason I think fuinjutsu needs either stronger mechanical definition of seal strength or to have better combat S-Ranks is because right now there doesn't really seem to be much distinction between a primary and a secondary specialist. Most of the plot relevant goodies being a primary/sole gives is given to the kage, and there isn't real much else to it.


2. The thing with pretty much everything cited here is something ninjutsu is already doing better when it comes to S-Ranks.
-Barrier ninjutsu at the S-Rank level lacks the sort of restrictions fuinjutsu is given on defense. There is no, "you can't block clan jutsu with this unless you belong to that specific clan".

-I would need to research further on restraint ninjutsu at the s-rank level, but I'm pretty confident there are S-Rank options in ninjutsu that work great for restraining in the ninjutsu field.

-Many fields of ninjutsu can outright kill many shinobi through S-Rank. While I have a feeling if anyone really did try to use these as they are described on the tin the staff would intervene. While being captured may not be fun, the fact that another build can cause mass permanent character loss is even less fun.

Now these may just be problems with ninjutsu being too powerful, but it still seems like fuinjutsu is held to a much higher balance expectation than ninjutsu is at the S-Rank level. The current standing definition of an S-Rank is that it can take multiple shinobi out and that it is very difficult to avoid. Currently, I only feel like Aggregate Gate Sealing Method does that for publicly available fuinjutsu.

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My opinion has been swayed that through jutsu creation we can make s-rank fuin better. I think the designs should strive towards area denial and deterrents that are larger than what we've seen, because we don't really have s-rank traps and that's probably the way to go.

[Sharp]

After thinking about this a bit more, I think it maybe isn't as bad as it seems.

Picking fuin primary/buki secondary made me think about how I'd be better off having switched them around. But what I should have been doing is comparing it to a ninjutsu primary/buki secondary. If I had gone that route, I'd surely have more options for Big Stupid Jutsu™, but then I wouldn't have access to A-Rank fuinjutsu which is where things really shine. Through aggregate gate sealing method I can still get a Big Stupid Jutsu™ without any ninjutsu specialization.

That still leaves things like Fuin Prime/Ninjutsu secondary and sole specialization more a poor option for combat, and the lack of variety of actually combat useful S-Ranks is still sorta dreadful- but I can see the silver lining at least with my own build so I am not as salty about it anymore